Are You Macho Enough to go Ghost Hunting?

In our episode Heaven is a Place Where Everything is Just Okay, our guest Gerry Hunter spoke at length about the machismo of certain family members. These “macho men” refused to acknowledge the strange activity taking place in Gerry’s haunted childhood home. But what does being machismo have to do with paranormal investigation? And how does that relate to modern-day paranormal reality shows, and the machismo and masculine characteristics of their subjects? We break it all down in this episode.

Transcript

BECKY
Hello, Hainted Loves. Welcome to Homespun Haints, Bonus Edition. I’m Becky

DIANA
I’m Diana.

BECKY
We just heard from Gerry Hunter on our episode on Monday. He is a minister. He’s retired now though; he’s the Reverend Gerald Hunter. He’s an author. He is a paranormal investigator. And what I think he spoke about in depth on that interview was the machismo of many of the men that were around him and how they reacted to ghosts.

And Diana, I thought this would be a great opportunity to revisit a topic that we had on our Patreon. If you guys are not members of our Patreon yet, you can go check that out on patreon.com/homespunhaints where our lovely patrons get all sorts of bonus content. And one of the things we talked about in depth was the idea of masculinity and femininity in paranormal investigation.

DIANA
Specifically for TV.

BECKY
We’re going to talk a little bit about that again today. But if you want more detail, go join our Patreon

DIANA
We talked about how it’s kind of emphasized for the benefit of the viewer and the television milieu. But what I want to talk about today is more just the general idea of approaching spirit communication and paranormal investigation in general, and what that has to do with masculinity and femininity in the larger scheme of things. Yeah.

BECKY
That sounds great. Let’s dive in.

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DIANA
And if you aren’t watching this on YouTube, you could be watching this on YouTube right now. Go to YouTube.

BECKY
Yeah, we have a YouTube.

DIANA
You can see our faces. Do you know what color our hair is right now? Do you even—can you even guess?

BECKY
I don’t know, changes every day.

DIANA
I guess you could call it “undefined.”

BECKY
I can tell you though, that our hearts are black. [EVIL LAUGHTER]

The Book We’re Referencing

I wanted to point out this book, Ghost Channels by Amy Lawrence. We got a lot of information about this on our Patreon episodes because it is the first, perhaps the only sociological study of ghost hunting shows. Ghost hunting reality shows. We will have a link to it on our website, but it is called Ghost Channels: Paranormal Reality Television and the Haunting of 21st Century America by Amy Lawrence.

And it is a fabulous book, and we’ll touch on some of the things that she talks about today. Then, we’re going to go into our own experiences in this field as storytellers who have talked to a lot of paranormal investigators and what masculinity really means. We’re going to do our best because as you can probably tell, we’re women.

DIANA
Well, it doesn’t mean we’re not masculine

BECKY
That’s true. Or are we women?

DIANA
Yes.

BECKY
Oh, okay. Thanks for defining that for me.

DIANA
You’re welcome. Put you in your box and stay there. Get in that pumpkin shell!

Aside from gender, does that book also kind of address, like you mentioned, that part of the title is “21st Century Ghost” stuff. Does it address the difference between how you would have been seen in the 20th century having a haunting or talking about your haunted house or talking about the ghost you saw, and how people are seen in the 21st century, because that is also a topic that Gerald brought up was that, nowadays, there is less stigma because people are actually seeking out haunted tourism and ghostie experiences and ghost hunting and ghost shows. And growing up in the mid sixties, he was very, very afraid of being made fun of and being a pariah for having a ghost in his house.

Did the show Ghost Hunters change attitudes about the paranormal?

BECKY
Yes, attitudes have definitely changed between now and 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago with regards to the paranormal and being open to the paranormal. And the show, Ghost Hunters, really kind of paved the way for that. And that that was the first one. The original Ghost Hunters came out on the Syfy Channel, and Ghost Hunters really came about in about 2002.

BECKY
And what happened was there was an article in the New York Times about this group of plumbers who were doing these paranormal investigations on the side. TAPS. The Atlantic Paranormal Society, and somebody over at SYFY saw the article and was like, Hey, this would make a great reality show.

DIANA
Absolutely.

BECKY
By 2009, it was the most popular show on SYFY.

DIANA
Really?

Your Average Joes

BECKY
The reason that the show is so successful isn’t just because they’re looking for ghosts. However, I do remember—and it may be in this book, but I do remember hearing this elsewhere—that because of the show of Ghost Hunters, belief in the paranormal amongst average Americans soared.

DIANA
Could that be because they were manly plumbers?

BECKY
That is part of it, yes. So the show did kind of open the way—it made it okay for people to kind of come out and be like, yeah, it’s okay. I believe in ghosts because these average Joes are out here doing these paranormal investigations. And sometimes they find things, sometimes they don’t, and they’re very scientific about it.

Now, prior to Ghost Hunters coming out, you definitely did have people on the fringe. Especially in the south where I live, there’s always been this sort of belief in spirits and haints and things like that. And then of course, we had the whole spiritualist movement in the Victorian era with mediumship and all that. So it does go in waves.

The Relationship Between Horror and the Economy

BECKY
It does go in trends. However, belief in the paranormal and interest in scary things such as ghosts and horror and all that tends to go up when the economy goes down.

DIANA
That’s so cool, isn’t it? Because also, I know that the interest in horror movies is linked to how many wars are currently waging on the planet.

BECKY
It’s an escape, right? It’s an escapism. Think about it now. Ghost Hunters, 2002 and then what happens in 2007 to the Global economy?

[MISSILE EXPLODING SOUND]

DIANA
Nothing good.

BECKY
We have this big major crash. And guess what we start seeing a lot of? Ghost hunting shows.

DIANA
Ghost shows! Ghost shows! yay!

Gender and Paranormal Investigation

BECKY
But we want to talk about gender, don’t we?

DIANA
I think so. That’s what we started out talking about. So. Yes, yes, that’s what we’re talking about.

BECKY
Let’s backtrack a little bit and let’s talk a little bit about what Gerry said about being macho and the reaction to ghosts.

DIANA
Oh, I just love that he used the word “macho man.” That way we can use it without feeling awkward. Yeah. No, he actually came out and said my dad was a very macho man and the brothers were also macho. And then he said, “I’ve always been the one who wasn’t macho in my family, despite my best efforts.” That kind of surprised me. Like, Oh, right, I wanted to be macho, like my family, but I’m not. But I tried, but I’m not.

BECKY
Well, it’s interesting that to him, being open to the spiritual kind of ran contrary to being quote unquote macho. And that also is discussed in this book. So when you think about the reason that these paranormal investigation shows have done so well, and if you notice that there tends to be a formula that they follow.

The Formula

DIANA
Yes, I have noticed that.

BECKY
So a couple of things that I want to point out. First of all, the men—because they’re mostly men. Yes, there are outliers. There are definitely women. They tend to be white men. Again, huge exception of Ghost Brothers, but they’re still dudes and they all tend to be from like a working class tough guy background. They’re plumbers, they’re contractors, they’re handymen. They are your everyday Joe. They’re your guy next door.

DIANA
Yeah, exactly. You know, you’re not going to get like, I’m Dr. Anthony Fauci, and I’d like to talk to you about ghost hunting. Yes.

BECKY
No.

DIANA
It’s like average people.

Your Average Joes

BECKY
It is. It is. And that’s very appealing. That’s very appealing to guys just like them, because what do they do, even though they’re these average Joes, even though they’re not out there conducting brain surgery, they’re still really tough because they can walk into a haunted house and not be afraid of the ghosts. It’s very appealing. So you dudes that watch the show, have you been like, “Yeah, I want to be like that?” I mean, I’ve watched the show and I’m like, “Yeah, I want to be like that.”

DIANA
Not afraid to go into a haunted situation. I think at first when I started watching the show, it kind of did impress me.

BECKY
Yeah, I was like, I want to fill up with that masculine energy and just be like, Yeah, and bring me my K2 meter. Come and get me ghosts. Mm hmm. No, I love it.

DIANA
I always thought that it was because they were plumbers. They could find out like, is it the pipes? Like, everybody always blames the pipes. Like they’re plumbers. They would know. Finally, we can get somebody to eliminate all these pipe sounds for for hauntings.

BECKY
Think about the stereotype for the average Joe, Right? He’s not the Ph.D. ivory tower academic; he’s down there working with his hands; he’s got more common sense. It’s the common sense, it’s the being of the people, knowing how stuff works. It’s not just theoretical. So that’s kind of where that comes in.

Analytical vs. Empathic

BECKY
Couple other things. They’re very analytical, right? They use tools.

DIANA
Yes.

BECKY
It’s not about feelings. It’s not about sensing.

DIANA
It’s supposed to be objective measurements, regardless of what those measurements are, they are objective.

BECKY
And in very stereotypical gender roles, men are thinking, women are feeling men use tools and objectivity, women use their emotions and their intuition. Hence, again, a big masculine thing. These guys never show fear because they have their tools. Now I’ve heard in actuality they do get scared. They just cut that out of the final cut.

DIANA
They just cut out the scary, scary part. Oh, oh, I feel cheated. I want the scary track. I want the track of of of screams beep.

BECKY
There’ll be a lot of screams, but it’s usually the women on the team. Have you noticed that?

DIANA
I have noticed that the women scream a little bit more, or at least their screams make the edit.

BECKY
Yeah. So that is the second aspect, right? So we’ve got Average Joe; common sense; doesn’t get afraid, not giving in to silly flights of fancy, right. Because he’s a blue collar worker, he just is in the dirt. He’s climbing under houses every day. He’s very analytical, very masculine. Again, very analytical, uses tools, does not get caught up in feelings.

Outside vs. Inside; Public vs. Private

BECKY
And thirdly, all of these shows—have you noticed that every single one of these shows, they always show them going to the place? They always have to have that cut of them in the vans, talking to one another on their way to the location. They make a very specific point of showing them going to the location. And that’s that’s a lot of film work, right?

Like they got to have the cameras in the car on the dash. They have to have the camera set up on the road watching their black vans in succession go by. Why—why make such a big point about it?

Why?

Again, traditional gender roles. Women are of the inside, men are of the outside of the world. And this dates back to ancient times. Ancient, ancient times. Back in classical Athens, the saying was a righteous, virtuous woman leaves her house twice in her life: once for her wedding, and once for her funeral.

This is this is where this comes—I mean, that’s not where it comes from. But that idea, right, is that women are supposed to be of interior spaces. They take care of the home. Men are of exterior spaces. They are public. And so, you have to make a point of showing that the men are outside. They’re going to another location.

It’s public to them, even though they’re going to be in a house, maybe. There’s a big deal of showing that they’re going there. They’re existing outside of the interior. They’re doing something in public.

DIANA
Yes.

BECKY
It all follows a formula and it’s very appealing to those of us that want to embrace our love of ghosts but not feel like we’re not macho. Read the book.

Does machismo mean you won’t do paranormal investigation?

DIANA
Interesting. You don’t think it’s got anything to do with just, happenstancially, in Gerry’s case, his mother believed in ghosts and his father was macho and didn’t believe in ghosts. And those have nothing to do with machismo. It’s just he saw a masculine role model, and so did his brothers, who didn’t believe in ghosts. And so that’s how they learned machismo.

BECKY
It has everything to do with machismo.

DIANA
So it’s an inherent quality of machismo to be like, I don’t believe in this. You’re making this up. I want nothing to do with this. I’m going to leave instead of—

BECKY
Well, think about it.

DIANA
—sticking it out and seeing if I—

BECKY
Even in these paranormal investigation shows, they always have to—it has to be proven right. And 95% of the time they don’t find anything. And that’s okay.

It has to be proven. It can’t be felt.

DIANA
Yeah, that’s true.

BECKY
It has to be proven through analytical tools. They have to catch something that cannot be shown any other way to be true.

DIANA
That makes sense to me. I like that. I don’t consider that necessarily an inherently masculine trait. To want objective proof of something. Stereotypically, yes.

Masculinity and Femininity in all of us

BECKY
When I say masculine, I don’t mean men. We all have masculine and feminine sides to ourselves, right? I’m talking about just society’s way of defining what masculine versus feminine is and whether or not you agree with it or not, I’m talking about the stereotypes that we’ve grown up with. Masculine is objective, analytical, feminine is feeling and intuitive. I know we are not cut and dry like that.

BECKY
That’s just the societal definitions that we are using to apply to this analysis. Does that make sense?

DIANA
I was looking at what I what I wrote in the show notes. If you’re interested in the show notes, they’re at homespunhaints.com right now, top of the page. But when I was kind of like rolling this around in my mouth earlier this week and I was thinking about the way that he was presenting the how he kind of viewed interacting with ghosts in general as an anti masculine trait.

And I was trying to think of qualities that I consider like inherently masculine, not manly, just masculine qualities has nothing to do with machismo. But the idea in my mind of like what is masculinity is I was mulling it over and I’m thinking like guidance and protection for one’s wards. Gallantness In the face of defending people who have less power or advantage than one’s self. Bravery in accomplishing intimidating tasks or confidently taking some action, mainly action based on rational reason and feats of physical strength and endurance, of course.

And those are kind of like when I kind of distill what is a masculine quality versus what is a stereotypical machismo quality. That’s what I think of. Does that make sense?

Machismo vs. Masculinity

BECKY
It does. And I love that. I love that. And I think you’re absolutely right. Like the machismo, I guess prior to these ghost hunting shows, that was typical of macho men or women who considered themselves macho men would be, Oh, I don’t believe in that. You’re just being silly. You’re being silly. There’s no proof. There’s no proof ghosts exist.

It’s not like you told me you saw a spider.

Rationality vs. Always Being Right

DIANA
And that’s interesting to me because, okay, I understand saying I don’t see any rational explanation within your ghost theories. I understand that. And kind of taking a step back as a masculine person wanting to be like, I don’t see the rationality behind your theory. You’re just talking about your feelings and what you imagined to be there. You’re not proving anything objectively.

I understand that and wanting to take a step back away from that. But the idea, especially when, you know, Gerry’s showing his brother, look at this, here’s my evidence. And his brother goes, I told you I didn’t want to see any of this, and leaves. That doesn’t strike me as masculine. That strikes me as very fearful, which again, is kind of contrary to the idea of masculine people being gallant, brave defenders.

I don’t know. So in that sense, the machismo itself kind of goes against masculinity.

BECKY
It does. It does. No, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think it’s because part of this machismo is having to prove that you’re always right. And if you see something that completely goes against that idea of, Oh, I was right, you’re just going to want to get out of the situation, you can’t handle it because your head’s going to explode.

Full of Rage

BECKY
He also points out that when these people are afraid, their reaction to being afraid is to get angry.

DIANA
To get full of rage.

BECKY
It’s like he got angry. He said, I don’t want to have anything to do with this. And instead of forcing himself to look at what he was seeing and re analyze all of his beliefs, he just left. He just removed himself from the situation. He couldn’t handle it.

DIANA
So what you’re saying is machismo is more about perhaps close minded authority.

BECKY
And always being right. Yes.

DIANA
Than it is about real masculinity. Right?

BECKY
Right. It can certainly appear as leadership. Right. If if you happen to always be right and people follow you.

DIANA
We don’t know anything about that in America. Not one bit!

[LAUGHTER]

Qualities of Masculinity

BECKY
I think real masculinity is like you said, if you’re presented with evidence that doesn’t fit with what you knew before, you have to pivot because you’re a leader.

DIANA
That would be the scientific method for those people who enjoy objective data. It’s the willingness to change your mind in the face of new objective data. That’s why I was so baffled by that reaction. I don’t want to see this leave What?

BECKY
Because it challenges your worldview and it also implies that you were wrong. You can’t be feeling like you were wrong. Yeah, you just got to get out of there.

DIANA
It’s a vulnerable position to realize you were wrong because before you realize you’re wrong, being wrong feels exactly like being right. So it doesn’t matter if you’re wrong or right, as long as you think you’re right.

BECKY
Right, right.

DIANA
But as soon as you realize you’re wrong. Uh oh, that’s very vulnerable. Machismo and vulnerability don’t tend to go very well together.

But masculinity and vulnerability do.

DIANA
Oh, there you go. Tell me more about that.

The Wartime General Analogy

BECKY
So let’s say you’re a general, right? General leading people to war or coming up with strategies and you get new information that says, oh, we’re being flanked on all sides. The approach that we were planning isn’t going to work. Are you going to be like, Oh, I’m never wrong and just go with your original strategy? Or are you going to be like, Oh snap, I better change?

Okay, I didn’t know that. I got new information. I gotta, I got to protect these people. These are my soldiers. I’m not just going to lead them into a slaughter just because I can’t be wrong.

DIANA
It’s your job to defend people who have less power or station than you do as a leader. And so therefore you’re going to pivot. Yeah, I agree. I think it’s good to reexamine your point of view when faced with new evidence.

BECKY
Also, you can choose whether or not that that makes you appear vulnerable or weak, because what real weakness is, is not being able to accept things in front of you. That’s real weakness.

Pretending Machismo is Masculinity

DIANA
In this case. We’re seeing the actions that Gerry was labeling as macho as something that is kind of almost like a mask, a masc mask, if you will. That will hit with a certain subset. An appearance of masculine qualities that don’t actually embody the qualities that you’re hoping to embody. I don’t want to tell you anybody is doing it wrong. That’s not what I mean.

I just it feels like in this whole episode, the machismo ran contrary to analyzing evidence and protecting and defending. Thank you for sharing your insider’s viewpoint of masculinity for me and those of us who may or may not be in the know. And I guess you’re not really a real, real, real insider because you weren’t raised male in a patriarchal society where you had to embrace certain trends of masculinity to survive and not get the crap beat out of you

BECKY
I feel so sorry for men. It’s got to suck.

DIANA
Especially growing up in 1960s, rural Michigan. Blech. Hainted Loves, If you were raised male in a patriarchal society and you have a differing viewpoint or want to point out things that we missed or want to point out things that we did wrong, or just feel like mansplaining your two cents into our conversation, we welcome that. Please let us know.

The conversation goes on and on, on our Facebook group, Facebook.com/groups/homespunhaints

BECKY
You could also leave a comment below on our YouTube.

DIANA
But either way, let us know. Let us know from the insiders point of view. Let us know from an outsider’s point of view. We just want to understand what machismo and masculinity have to do with ghosts. And in the meantime, have a spooky day.